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🔗 Life, Learning, and Launching: Insights from Acupuncture Entrepreneurs
In our latest podcast episode, "Boncho Friends," I had the pleasure of diving deep into the journey of Bora and Isaac, the dedicated co-founders of Bon Cho Friends. 🚀 Whether you're a budding acupuncture student or an aspiring entrepreneur, their story is filled with invaluable lessons and inspiration. Here are some key takeaways:
🔹 Foundational Knowledge is Crucial: Both Isaac and Bora emphasize the importance of mastering the foundational concepts of Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM). It’s not just about memorizing facts but truly understanding the underlying principles to prevent misdiagnosis and offer effective treatments.
🔹 Ethics and Passion Over Profit: Whether it’s Dr. Richard Lai’s decision to resign from an unethical clinic or Bora and Isaac’s commitment to a business driven by values, this episode highlights the importance of maintaining integrity and following your passion. Financial success follows if you're true to your ethics and dedicated to your craft.
🔹 Balancing Act of Entrepreneurship: Starting Bon Cho Friends wasn't easy for Bora and Isaac. They had to juggle full-time jobs while working late nights on their project. Their realistic approach and perseverance paid off, demonstrating that balancing financial stability with entrepreneurial dreams is indeed challenging but possible.
✨ Bonus: Our guests shared practical study tips for acupuncturists, including the use of memory palaces, spaced repetition, and understanding the 'why' behind concepts rather than rote memorization.
📲 Don't miss out on the full conversation! Listen now and be inspired by their journey. Plus, get a 10% discount on Boncho Friends products with the code "studyacuwithme." www.bonchofriends.com Follow them on Instagram and TikTok @BonchoFriends.
Transcript of Episode
Isaac [00:00:00]:
Hey. This is real. Yeah. This is actually true. This is reality. You could do it. Believe in yourself. Just one more day.
Isaac [00:00:06]:
One more day. Keep grinding. Just do what you wanna do. Follow your heart. You don't have to sacrifice your morals. You don't have to sacrifice your beliefs. Just follow your dreams.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:00:17]:
So in this episode, we talk to Bora and Isaac. And I actually recorded this episode back in August of 2024. Right now, it's October, and I finally finished editing it. And the reason it took so long is because, I'll just say it, I let perfection get in the way of progress. For some reason, when we were recording, the microphone must have jiggled out of the port, and so it recorded audio from my laptop microphone rather than this microphone that I'm holding in my hand. And so that really bothered me. And every time I went to go edit it, I just didn't like it. So then I just kept putting it off.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:00:51]:
So my advice to myself and to you is not let perfection get in the way of progress. So in this episode, we talk with Bora and Isaac. They are the creators behind Bon Show Friends. These are study cards that you can use to study for the NCCAOM board exam. We also talked about the sacrifices that they had to make and how hard they had to work in order to get a bunch of friends off the ground. One thing that was really eye opening for me was how they both went through these life changing experiences and how they got through it. And they talk in detail about that. It really motivated me.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:01:23]:
I think it's gonna motivate you as well. On top of all that, they also shared really good study tips on how to use their flashcards to help you prepare in school and for the board exam as well. I was really motivated by them because of their story, both as business partners and also actually as life partners. They just got married in September. I'm really excited for them, and I wish them all the best of luck because they deserve it. They're just really good people. And I was really motivated by the testimony that Bora and Isaac gave at the end of this episode. So be sure to check out Bora and Isaac at bonjofriends.com, and they're actually gonna give Study Acupuncture With Me listeners 10% off their first order if you use Study Acu With Me at checkout.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:02:00]:
Alright. So without further ado, I hope you enjoy the episode.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:02:05]:
Alright. Hey, everyone. Doctor Richard Lai here with Study Acupuncture with me. And today, we have not just one guest, but we actually have 2 very special guests today. Today, we are joined by Ora and Isaac, and they are the geniuses behind Buncho Friends. And if you don't know what Buncho Friends is, Buncho Friends has amazing study cards that cover acupuncture points, Herbology, basic foundation. It even covers diagnosis. So everyone, please join me in welcoming the geniuses behind Bunch of Friends, Laura and Isaac.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:02:37]:
Hey, Lee. Hi, everyone. Thank you guys for joining the show. And, you know, the point of today is to let the listeners really know about you. So first then, first question is, can you guys introduce yourselves and tell us about yourselves?
Bora [00:02:51]:
Okay. Hi. My name is Bora, Bora Choi. I am the cofounder and CEO of Pancho Friends. I graduated from Southfield University in Anaheim, California, and I have my license acupuncture in 2018 for California license and then for NCCOM for diplomat of Oriental Medicine, I got that in 2020. Yeah. And then after that, we started Pancho Friends together officially.
Isaac [00:03:24]:
My name is Isaac. I'm the creative director for Pancho. I'm the artist behind the drawings Oh. And design the cards. Yeah. I studied studio art at UCSD, and I went to South Belo University from 2,012 to 2015, and I dropped out at the very end. And I turned my back on acupuncture and med or into medicine for certain reasons. But I got back in because I started to work at a nutritional supplements company that's based on Chinese medicine, and I was able to utilize my knowledge there to consult with, our customers for the Chinese medicinal, nutritional supplements, and that's where we actually met.
Isaac [00:04:14]:
So we both got hired there and, met there. And as we talked about acupuncture, or into medicine, and business ideas, because we're both, we both like business. So that's how Pancho started to evolve, and we decided to why not make the company and see where it goes.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:04:37]:
So you both were working full time at this nutritional supplement company, and then you you sort of Yes. Did you guys know each other when you guys were in school?
Isaac [00:04:44]:
No. No? I left school in 2015, and she actually entered the school in 2015. Ah. So
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:04:53]:
It's like Like that. That's like a movie. You know, you guys are coming in and someone's reading it. Right? One of my favorite movies is this Asian movie called Turn Left, Turn Right, where, like, this this couple, they live next door to each other, but one always turns right, one always turns left, but they're destined to be together. And and
Isaac [00:05:11]:
the whole movie is just about that.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:05:14]:
So it's sort of like you 2. Right? It's like, oh, you're just leaving, and then once it's but then eventually, you guys leave together. Yeah.
Isaac [00:05:21]:
You know, the crazy thing is that, like, that actually happened to us for com community college as well because we we talked about, like, the school. Yeah. We went to I went to Fullerton College Uh-huh. For community college before I went to UCSD. And when I left, she and Oh, cool. I checked.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:05:39]:
So lit yeah. So it's literally turned left, turned right.
Isaac [00:05:42]:
Yeah. Literally. But did you know
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:05:43]:
each other then? Like No. Not at all. Not at all. You should look back at your pictures. Look back at your pictures. Maybe, like, she's in the background or, like, he's in the background.
Isaac [00:05:53]:
Right? Yeah. I think Yeah. I think Yeah. I know. I've got I've got it. It's good. Like, every time it
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:05:59]:
That is crazy. That's cool. Yeah. And so but then fast forward to now. Right? So I don't think the listeners know, but you guys are about to get married? Married. Yeah. I don't know.
Bora [00:06:10]:
I don't know.
Isaac [00:06:12]:
Yeah.
Bora [00:06:12]:
Yeah. We got married we actually got married in the States this year Uh-huh. In January.
Isaac [00:06:19]:
Like And Legally married.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:06:21]:
Legally. Yeah.
Isaac [00:06:22]:
Mhmm. So we didn't have a wedding Mhmm. Because all of our family is in Korea. So even my fam all my extended family is in Korea. So we legally married, tied the knot on January 2nd, but we're having the wedding here.
Bora [00:06:39]:
Wedding ceremony? Yeah.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:06:40]:
In Korea. In Korea. Yeah. And Korean wedding ceremonies are fast and a crazy Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because you you know, for people who don't know, a Korean wedding is, like, it's just you you go in, and it's very fast ceremony. Maybe someone's gonna sing, and then you go downstairs with my feet.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:06:58]:
You know?
Isaac [00:06:59]:
It's very like, It's like corporate.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:07:04]:
When I went to the
Bora [00:07:05]:
the next person, next couple
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:07:07]:
goes in? A little bit. Factory. When when we were on my brother in law's wedding, when we were in Korea, it was like in the front, all of his pictures, everything like that. And then we go into the wedding, we come out, Somebody else's pictures are there. Everybody goes, oh, it's so bad.
Isaac [00:07:21]:
Yeah. Yeah. That's exactly right. So And you said
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:07:25]:
So for the 2 of you, right, you guys are sort of a left, right thing. Right? Very destined people to be together. You guys almost betting community college coming in and coming out and then almost at acupuncture school coming in and coming out. And then finally, the universe decided to put you guys together at this nutritional supplement company and then working together. Who approached who first?
Isaac [00:07:50]:
You know, I mean, 100% it was me. Because over here, this person is very shy. So, I I mean, I I as I got to know her, you know, I fell in love with her, you know, personality. She's, like, the biggest thing. Like, she has the biggest heart, like, the biggest, like, nicest person I know, and she's able she's able to take care of, the people around her. Like, just watching her take care of all her the employees at the company, like, it really had a big impact on me because I was like, wow. There's an there's someone who's, like, who has super big heart like this. Right? So I started to really like her, and the way that I approached her was to find a common ground.
Isaac [00:08:43]:
Right? So we found, as we talked, the common ground that I found was that we're both really interested in business Oh. And, like, how the business works. Like, the books that she was reading was very similar to the ones that I was reading. So, yeah. I think I really you're drawn. Went straight forward. Yeah?
Bora [00:09:06]:
Yeah. He initiated a lot of meetings.
Isaac [00:09:09]:
Meetings? Like like Business. Yeah.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:09:14]:
Just meetings. Yeah. Business is so cute. So then okay. So then you guys are both fairly interested in business. Like, what what's a book that you guys were both similarly reading? Do you remember?
Isaac [00:09:27]:
I think it was Think and Grow Rich.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:09:29]:
Oh, okay.
Isaac [00:09:30]:
I think Think and Grow Rich was the biggest common book.
Bora [00:09:33]:
Yes. Mhmm. And then the other one was
Isaac [00:09:36]:
The Rich Dad Poor Dad,
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:09:37]:
Robert Kiyosaki. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Both very good books. Yeah. Thinking COVID. Yeah.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:09:41]:
Have writing things down. That thing it's pasted on my computer to ask you. Wow. Okay. That's great. That's great. Okay, good. Yeah.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:09:50]:
So then you guys are business minded people and then you guys met there. You guys got to know each other. You guys were friends first, and then you guys fell in love. And then where did you guys go on your first date?
Isaac [00:10:01]:
That's a tough question because honestly, once we got the ball rolling and we talked about, like, business and stuff, it became natural for us to just meet every day. Oh, okay. So we're seeing each other every day at work. We're seeing each other after work. And then it just became natural. I think we were going after, you know, that kind of thing. Like, we're spending so much time together. We're eating lunch together, dinner together.
Isaac [00:10:29]:
So I think it just happened naturally.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:10:31]:
It just felt comfortable. Really nice.
Isaac [00:10:34]:
Yeah. We it just felt really comfortable, and then I think it was the moment when we started to hold hold hands. It's like a k drop. So, like, yeah. Shit. But I don't think it was, like, a specific, like, first date or anything where you're just like, okay.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:10:53]:
And then hold hands. That's cute.
Isaac [00:10:56]:
That's cute. Someone told me
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:10:57]:
a long time ago that the secret to any marriage, right, is to be in the same direction. And so whenever I see couples, I try to figure out, like, what's their same direction? I told my brother-in-law this too, because it's like in the very beginning, you know, it feels like you're in the same direction. So every once in a while, you still have to course correct and make sure, like, are we going in the same direction? Is our family are we, you know, after the same goal? Maybe, you know, we're having a family. Our goal is to have a really calm, peaceful environment, loving for our family. So both of us, we know that's the goal. So every day we do that. Or our goal is to make money so we can travel the world and show our kids or show ourselves the world. So you're going the same direction.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:11:37]:
People get in trouble when Right. Over time, 5 years, 10 years, you don't course correct. So in the beginning, it's like your parallel lines. But if it's just a little bit degree off 10 years ago, 10 years later, it could be in very different directions. So we'd be getting into trouble with that. So it's like you have to make sure you're sort of in the same direction. Right. So like, right.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:11:57]:
For you, it feels like, like business from the very beginning, growing something, not just yourself and then keeping you in that direction, but yeah.
Isaac [00:12:05]:
Right.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:12:05]:
Yeah. So that was someone. You don't, that's,
Isaac [00:12:08]:
that's a really interesting point because, like, not all I I feel like that not only applies to, like, marriage, but it implies to, like, everything in life. Like, if a one degree difference between, oh, I'm gonna be successful or I'm not gonna be successful, like, changes your life from 10 years from now. Yeah. And I think, to get off from that tangent, like, the reason why we call our company poncho is because not only does it mean Chinese medicine and Korean, but it's a double meaning where the Chinese characters are pon and cho, which is foundation and beginning. And our whole philosophy is course correcting constantly. Remember where you're orienting yourself. Like, I'm here to heal people. I'm here to help others.
Isaac [00:13:00]:
I'm here to know the basics and know my foundation of where I started so that I have that strong foundation to build upon my knowledge, my career, my family, my friends. So that to us, that orientation is really, really something important Yeah.
Bora [00:13:22]:
When we when he started talk about doing business, he told me exactly the same thing, and then that's when I was like, oh, this person is different. You're you're gonna do something with him. Yeah. I
Isaac [00:13:36]:
didn't tell her to say anything. Wow. Thank you. You know the term orient. Right? Like orienting yourself? And that's why I like oriental medicine. Yeah. Because in a sense, it's like we're reorienting our, body, like, health, into the correct position toward health. And a lot of people say acupuncture and herbology, it's not like Western medicine where the effect is quick like that, But actually having increments of small degrees changes, it really course corrects in a large way in the future.
Isaac [00:14:13]:
So, yeah, I think it's a beautiful way to call our medicine oriental medicine just because it's like we're orienting ourselves. Yeah.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:14:22]:
I love that. I think with any medicine, I feel like acupuncture, oriental medicine, traditional Chinese medicine, it's almost the only one you're taught to have an intention and bring that intention into the treatment so that even the one needle, some teachers talk about the one needle. Is the one needle the one physical needle, or is the one needle you? Right? So it's like you are more than enough to help this person orient themselves so that their body is back in harmony. You know, western medicine sometimes they don't teach that. They don't teach that as much anyway. It's very, like, 4 patients at the same time and typing on the computer while you're not even looking at the person when it's like there's no connection. Right? No, like, even originating yourself first, bringing it to them. It's like there's there's nothing like that in a lot of Western things.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:15:08]:
Right? Yeah.
Isaac [00:15:10]:
Yeah. You, you did reduce you down to a statistic or a number rather than a person. Right.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:15:16]:
Yeah. All right. So you guys met there. Right? And then you guys decided to start this poncho friends. Right? So then how did that start? How did you guys begin the process of even doing that? Because there's acupuncture students and acupuncturists out there who, they wanna start their own something. What did you guys do? How did you guys, begin this whole thing? So we actually started
Isaac [00:15:41]:
a company in 2 1019, but we didn't incorporate it until 2021. So we started the company as in like, oh, let's actually post things based on Pancho France in 2019. And then it was on and off. Yes. Like, we were thinking about doing different business ideas. But 2021, we decided, hey, let's full on the students. But the idea for Pancho actually started way earlier. So the name Foundation and Beginning ponchoa, the reason why I wanted to call it that was because of my experience at acupuncture school.
Isaac [00:16:23]:
So while I was going to school, I had this really not naive, but more like a romantic idea that acupuncturists and, healers, doctors are in it to help other people. Like, it's 100%. I'm in it to heal others. I'm here to help others become healthy. I'm like a saint. Like, a very romantic type of idea that I had. And when I was studying acupuncture and talking to other students, you know, the world isn't all fairy dust kind of like that. Right? It's more realistic.
Isaac [00:17:05]:
You got to build a business. You got to earn money. You got to actually get paid for your work. Right.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:17:11]:
Right.
Isaac [00:17:11]:
Right. So as people were talking about that, for me it was kind of devastating, right, because I'm Pisces. I don't know if you're into zodiac, but I'm very idealistic. And so I thought everyone, at school had pure intentions of just wanting to help people rather than making money, building a business, which is all good. And I look back at my younger self, and I wish I wasn't too hot headed about it. I regret certain decisions, such as dropping out of school 1 month before graduation. But to me, it it was so important that healers, doctors, and practitioners never forget why they're doing this. Why am I a doctor? Why am I healing other people? And I think that's where the true essence of poncho comes from.
Isaac [00:18:07]:
Let's remember where our roots are, our foundation, why we started. So that's why poncho actually started. From that, thinking about, okay, how am I going to convey acupuncture to the world? Because a lot of this discussion at the time was, oh, how am I gonna get more money from my patient? How am I gonna compete against my other classmates when they graduate? So I saw a lot of students competing with each other even before they graduated in the sense that they were not directly sabotaging but indirectly sabotaging by hiding information. Wow. Not certain things. Like once they get a tip, they're like Oh, wow. Like I'm not going to tell you anything unless you provide me something. Or one devastating comment that I heard from another person was that even if you could treat someone fully in 3 sessions, you gotta do it in 10 sessions.
Isaac [00:19:10]:
Mhmm. You gotta tell them that, hey. Actually, I could do it in 10 sessions. I Even though I could do it in 3, you got to tell them 10 because you need to make money. And if you're starving, you're never going to survive. Those kind of comments really hit me hard, really hard in the heart especially. So for me, it was like a crisis, right? Is it the game that I'm supposed to, play and accept? Or am I gonna change the game? So after a lot of soul searching, I decided that, hey, you know what? How about we increase the pie rather than try to compete for the pies within the small pie? And for me, that was to expand the knowledge of acupuncture, expand the industry, expand it to the point where there's a lot more customers. Yeah.
Isaac [00:20:06]:
Like, so many customers that we can't even handle that many customers, so we don't even need to compete with each other. And how could we do that? And I thought, okay, that's gonna be education. Mhmm. Like, people need to learn about this because as I'm learning, I'm like astounded. I'm shocked by people getting one needle and I'm like,
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:20:25]:
oh, it doesn't hurt anymore. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Isaac [00:20:28]:
Like amazing. Like how does that happen, right? And when I'm shocked like that, I was certain that other people are going to be like that as well. Like other fellow Americans, other people who never heard of acupuncture. So for me, it was like, okay, I need to reach those people, the people who don't know that this kind of amazing thing exists. And so I thought the best way to convey that and expand this knowledge will be through cute characters.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:20:57]:
Yeah. It worked.
Isaac [00:21:00]:
It worked. But actually my wife on your stuff is like, that cute. Wait. That's really
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:21:06]:
cute. That's so cute.
Bora [00:21:08]:
We actually 2019 when we first started Bonjour Friends. If anyone goes back to our Instagram page and then go back to, like, very first one, we started with Earth and comic form. Mhmm. So everything was in a comic form and explaining things with the characters and, like, bubbles, and that's how it started.
Isaac [00:21:31]:
Started. Yeah.
Bora [00:21:32]:
Yeah. And then later on, it developed into card format because he is very into Pokemon cards. Yes.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:21:40]:
Yeah.
Bora [00:21:40]:
Yes. So that's where I got the idea to create this into cards. And a lot of people are very into cards, like trading cards or baseball cards. So we thought I thought that that was a really great idea. So I told him, oh yeah, we should definitely do this. We should make it into Pokemon like, arts. Yeah. Because I have
Isaac [00:22:02]:
a lot of ideas. Like, I I have a thousand ideas, but this company would never have happened if she wasn't the one who said, actually, this is it. Like, this is the idea that we should work on. So when she said, hey, this is something that people are gonna want, it was a key moment when it actually developed into a actual company. Yes. Because for me, it was just all about ideas. Yeah. But for her, it's all about the physical, actual, realistic approach to the business.
Bora [00:22:34]:
Right. Yeah. So when we started our first the single herb cards, we didn't have much money to make our own cards. We didn't have starting funds. So we
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:22:46]:
did Kickstarter.
Bora [00:22:47]:
Kickstarter. Oh, wow. So how much money
Isaac [00:22:49]:
did you raise from that? Like, 20 customers. Wow.
Bora [00:22:52]:
That's good enough money for us to start the business.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:22:55]:
To start the business.
Bora [00:22:56]:
Yeah. So that's how the actual business started.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:22:59]:
Mhmm.
Isaac [00:22:59]:
And it showed us that you were actually willing to pay.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:23:02]:
Yes. And I But that's, like, your proof too. Oh, wow. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. So you guys had the idea. Right? And then you guys were working on it in your Instagram and whatnot since 2019.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:23:13]:
And then 2021, you said that's when you incorporated. Right? Like, actually made it more official. According to the law, you guys got your LLC or something
Isaac [00:23:21]:
like that.
Bora [00:23:22]:
We did the Kickstarter in 2021. Oh, okay.
Isaac [00:23:26]:
She's she's probably right.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:23:30]:
And so because in my research of you too, something happened in 2021. Right? There was, like, a wake up call that sort of happened there. Can can you talk about that? I don't know.
Bora [00:23:38]:
So I I had a really big car accident. My car got totaled.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:23:44]:
Oh, wow.
Bora [00:23:44]:
Thankfully, I didn't get much hurt. But after that incident, I really had to think about what I really wanna do in my life. Yeah. So, I was actually driving to pick up lunch for my coworker back then, and then that's when I got car accident. And then I was like, oh, this getting in a car accident, then die, I could have died that day. And thinking about that, I was like, that's really meaningless life. After that happening, I thought about it a lot, and then I talked to him a lot. Since we did started Bunch of Friends Instagram together in 2019, we had a break in between Mhmm.
Bora [00:24:30]:
Some period. But then
Isaac [00:24:32]:
We threw, like, ideas to each other. We're like, how about we do a dropship business? Or how about we do this kind of business? Blah blah blah. And then Peng Shu was just one of them. But after this incident, it was
Bora [00:24:42]:
Yeah. And then I was like, okay. We have to do something that is meaningful. And then, yeah, it's just you only live once, and I really wanted to do something that's impactful to, our community Mhmm. Help a lot of people. So that's when I when we actually got back to a bunch of friends, and then we developed more into creating, like, actual cards, and, like, we really did a lot of brain brainstorming how to help students and practitioners to help others
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:25:17]:
Yeah.
Bora [00:25:18]:
To get healthier. Wow. Yeah.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:25:20]:
Yeah. I mean, even for the people who are listening, what is the wake up call for you? Because life will throw you a huge curveball, like a car accident or something to make you wake up and realize, what am I doing? And maybe I can find something more meaningful. Wow. That's that's amazing. And I can see more too as I'm talking to you guys. We got to know each other before this call as well, but I see where it's like Isaac is very, like, ethical person, right, and then drawn to someone who has a really pure heart And then, like, a person who has a lot of ideas, a lot of a lot of hope in the world, a lot of, like, sees the good in everything. Right? And has a lot of ideas to help others, but needs a aura to focus on ideas. Right? Yeah.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:26:06]:
Right? So that it should that it's a little more focus versus, like, this one, this one, or this one, this one. Right? I mean, this one. No. This is the one. Let's do this one. Right? And so Yes. Yes. Yeah.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:26:17]:
Because that's acupuncturist. We will we're tricked by them. Right. And then like, we have to ask ourselves, like, what do we do in that situation? You know, like, do we stand by our morals and our ethics and just, okay, like, is this just the way the world is like you were saying before? Or it's like, do I do something about it? Mhmm. Because I I mean, one of the places that I worked at, the clinics that I worked at, the acupuncturist there wanted me to work more hours. And so I didn't wanna work, like, the different amount of hours, because I was trying to get as much clinical practice as I can by working in different settings. And with this person, he had a, you know, a clinic in New York, clinic in New Jersey. He wanted me to use my license for the patients that he was seeing, but I wasn't seeing.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:27:03]:
So that way it's like they come in, they get massage therapy, chiropractic care, physical therapy, acupuncture. So then all 4 in one. That's how you make money. And I was like, oh, wow. So I'd really had to think about it too. You know, I had to think about it. Like, what do I do? I gave my letter of resignation. He tried calling me.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:27:21]:
He sent me my checks, and I just I just let it go. Because I was like, I don't want this money because this money is not good money. You know? So just, like, I let it sit down. Just, like, after, like, a, I mean, 180 days, it just voids or whatever. But it's like, yeah. Like, what do you do in those situations? Right? So Oh. Like, you, you you decide to get out of there. Right? For people who are listening, right? If you're in that situation, it's like, what do you do? But it really depends what is happening.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:27:46]:
Right? If something so unethical, maybe the best choice is to get out of it. Right?
Isaac [00:27:51]:
Yeah. Oh. Oh. Yeah.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:27:53]:
I'm so happy to know.
Isaac [00:27:54]:
You actually had it and you didn't.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:27:56]:
Yeah. Oh, yeah. You did? Wow.
Isaac [00:27:58]:
I didn't want yeah.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:27:59]:
I just, like, let it go. I don't I don't want he sent me my last checks. I didn't answer any of his stuff. And then one night, I was out in New York, and I saw him there. And I was like, I just immediately left.
Isaac [00:28:10]:
I immediately oh, I don't want it.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:28:12]:
That was scary. What is he gonna say? Where are you? How are you know, what's going on? I was like, oh, I'm just gonna leave. You know? And then I just didn't find out to it's the K Town.
Isaac [00:28:21]:
K Town is very small.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:28:21]:
You know? You could run into Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, that that was the time. I was hoping. Then it is cool. Well, it's tough. It's tough because it is the world is you need money to live.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:28:36]:
Right? You have to pay for rent. But one of my mentors a long time ago told me, always just follow your clinical foot first. The money will follow. Clinical first, money will follow because in physical therapy, unit driven, we have a lot of different CPT codes, exercise, balance, ambulation, therapeutic activity training, soft tissue, all these different things. Mhmm. And it's all based on the 8 minute rule. Same thing in acupuncture. We just had less codes.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:29:00]:
But, like, if it's 55 minutes of codes that I bill, that's 4 units. If I bill 50, that's 3 units. So that's, like, one whole unit that I'm missing. And if I have 20 patients that day, that's 20 units I'm missing for the day. Let's say you get paid a $100 for those 20 units. Right? That that that's a lot of money that goes on every single day. So people think of, oh, bill 2 more. It's like, it's not about the unit.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:29:23]:
It's about, like, how much clinical expertise you can give to the patient. Follow your clinical foot, and money will come as long as you have the right intention with the patient. You know? Mhmm. Similar to, like, what you said. It's like expand the education of everyone so they know, hey, this is, this is good for me. Okay. I will seek out acupuncture. I will seek out an urologist.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:29:45]:
One book that my wife and I listened to was The Secret. Have you guys listened to that one or read that one?
Isaac [00:29:50]:
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. First time you heard of Change My Life. Right? It's definitely a book that changed my life.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:29:56]:
Yeah. Yeah. Right. And one of the things I remember from there is talking about that that competition. You can't think like there's competition out there in the world because there's enough for everybody
Isaac [00:30:06]:
because it it will come. So that that was around the exact time when I started thinking about expanding the pie. Mhmm. Because AppDog really changed my life. I was in a, point where I was, like, really devastated. Like, I was having a crisis. Am I do I still really wanna do this? Do I have to accept this kind of reality? But that book changed my life, and that started to change my thought process. And that was the reason why I started thinking, you know what? Let's expand the pie.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:30:35]:
Yeah. That's a lot of it. It's a lot of it. Yeah. Yeah. Otherwise, people go into different things thinking that they could just make money. But expand the pie, educate everyone, and it'll be more than enough for everybody. Yeah.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:30:45]:
I agree. I agree. So question for you guys about because like starting anything is is really hard. You know, just getting it off the ground is very hard. Right. And especially you guys were both working also. And then to work on this also, I'm sure it took some sacrifice. Can you talk about some sacrifices that you guys had to make to get a bunch of friends off the ground?
Bora [00:31:08]:
We saw that continue on from the Kickstarter. We were a 100% in bunch of friends. So we weren't both working at that time. Mhmm. We wanted to make this happen. Like, really, really wanted to make this happen.
Isaac [00:31:21]:
We were living on our savings at that time. We're like, you know what? YOLO. Yes.
Bora [00:31:26]:
Let's do it. All in. Yeah.
Isaac [00:31:27]:
All in is.
Bora [00:31:29]:
But, like, after I think it was, like, a couple or couple months or 3 months.
Isaac [00:31:34]:
It was exactly 3 months. Yeah.
Bora [00:31:35]:
Okay. So after 3 months, like, we were running out our savings. We didn't have money to, pay our next rent, pay our next pay. Yeah. So we had to find something to pay for our savings. He went back to finding a job, and then I went back to finding a job. So we're working both working and working for the creating 1, 2 friends at the same time. Like, 9 to 5, we're working at a job, and then after that, we come back and then
Isaac [00:32:08]:
And she was working jobs related to acupuncture. She was working, like, random jobs because she was just trying to grasp onto whatever she could because she's more of a panicky type. I'm more of, like, the all all is well kind of of fear. I literally tattooed all all my wrist. She looked at it every time I panic. I'm like, you
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:32:28]:
know what? All is well is well.
Isaac [00:32:30]:
But that's not for her. Like, for her, she's, like, panicked.
Bora [00:32:32]:
I I panicked, and I was like, oh. So if
Isaac [00:32:34]:
she's just trying to find any kind of job that you could find, like, right away, like, hire me now kind of job, so she did. She went through, like, 7 I mean, how many how many businesses?
Bora [00:32:45]:
Oh, well, like Like, there was,
Isaac [00:32:47]:
like, a wig company. There was a what
Bora [00:32:50]:
So I worked at a I worked at a chair company, ecommerce. They're selling a chair online.
Isaac [00:32:56]:
But before that. Before?
Bora [00:32:57]:
That was before that. Yeah. But then when And
Isaac [00:32:59]:
you worked at a wig company first
Bora [00:33:00]:
Yeah.
Isaac [00:33:01]:
And then some random butter.
Bora [00:33:03]:
I can't even remember.
Isaac [00:33:04]:
Yeah. Chips company. Like, if 3 and you know, the other, like, chips? Uh-huh. Like, they were selling nuts and Brazil nuts as well.
Bora [00:33:11]:
Yeah.
Isaac [00:33:12]:
Yeah. So she was going through, like Yeah. Different Anything
Bora [00:33:17]:
I can find
Isaac [00:33:18]:
the 5.
Bora [00:33:18]:
Work. Yeah. And then, get paycheck. I even work at a real estate company too, selling houses, buying houses.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:33:27]:
Oh, yeah.
Bora [00:33:27]:
So I have a lot of, like, different kind of experience, which I don't regret. It always come back, and then in your life, you always, use that knowledge
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:33:36]:
Mhmm.
Bora [00:33:37]:
Somehow. I don't regret it. But only thing that I would do differently if I go back to that time, I would just relax and calm down first, and then tell myself everything's gonna be okay, and I don't have to chase money. I think I was really scared that I wasn't gonna make it for the next month or month after.
Isaac [00:33:59]:
Which is why Pancho got delayed because she was in a desperate mode. Like, even though we, like, oh, you know what? Let's Yolo, let's put it all in. Let's start a business. So 3 months, not enough to sustain us, obviously. So so she went to panic mode. It's like, no. No. Yes.
Isaac [00:34:19]:
I don't think this is it. And so we went our separate ways in that moment. Like, we still we were in a relationship at the time, so we're still supporting each other. But Pancho was in the back burner at the time. Because for us, it was like, you know what? We gotta make we gotta pay the rent. So I worked at my job. She worked at her jobs. But that car accident really changed her mindset.
Isaac [00:34:41]:
Mhmm. Like, working at this chair company is meaningless. Like, she could work there comfortably, get the paycheck, but what am I doing to change the world? Right. Is this what I really wanna do for the rest of my life? So I think that moment was the turning point for us to get back into poncho because there are people who are DM ing us, commenting, saying that, oh, we love this. This is actually really helping us with our studies. Please make more. So we got back in. Wow.
Isaac [00:35:11]:
Wow. Yeah. Yeah. But a lot of like, those are the kind of sacrifices that we had to go through because, you know, these are random jobs, right? Like we, it's not like what we envisioned Yeah. In our lives. But we still had to push through and decide again, hey, let's try to do poncho again, even though we sort of failed in the beginning and went through panic
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:35:41]:
mode Yeah.
Isaac [00:35:42]:
For about a year.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:35:44]:
I I I don't blame you. It's scary. It's scary if things were coming in, and you still get the DMs. You still get the comments, and you're like you look at your phone. It's like sort of a stressful thing, you know, like and you're at a crossroads too. Right? And sort of like a burnout type situation, but physically affecting your life because you're not having the finances coming in. So then you had to make the sacrifices and work jobs that you didn't want to work to make money, to put food on the table and to make sure you had a place to live while also still having this baby of poncho in the back of your head. Like this is something that I want to do.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:36:17]:
And then for Bora too, I see where it's like, you just both of you, you just want to help others. You're out there helping someone getting lunch for them, getting into a major car accident for somebody else, getting lunch for them right at a chair company. And then it's like, I want to help people.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:36:33]:
I'm helping people out my job
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:36:34]:
by helping them get lunch. And it's like, but I'm I'd say it's a chair company. Not that it's a bad bad thing per se, but it's not what you want your life to be. And then Bongio came, came back. So then from there, you guys worked your 9 to 5, but then you also worked what? You're 5 to 9. Right? Which is on Bongio.
Isaac [00:36:51]:
Yeah. We, we decided that, hey, let's be more realistic this time. That's not your loan Yeah. Right. And our savings. How about we take it step by step? So that's that's why we had our full time job. And once we got back home, we eat dinner and then work until, like, 12, 1 AM. 1 AM, 2 AM.
Isaac [00:37:12]:
Yeah. Every single day just grinding, grinding, grinding.
Bora [00:37:15]:
Sometimes you work until 5 in the morning, have, like, 2 hours sleep, and then go to work. Wow.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:37:20]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Isaac [00:37:20]:
Just to meet the deadlines because we have preorders. So in order to meet those deadlines, I had to do it. Right? Because this is money that we receive from our loyal customers. And if we don't fulfill these products in time, then that's it. Yes. Right? So that's why at certain moments, I only had, like, 2, 3 hours of sleep. Wow. It was worth it.
Isaac [00:37:41]:
Yeah. It was worth it.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:37:42]:
Yeah. Alright. So then actually then, let's let's talk about your different products. Because through all that grind, you guys have foundations, acupuncture, herbology. How many years did it take to get all of that done?
Isaac [00:37:52]:
I I think we have a total, like, just product, like SKU numbers, like SKUs, 15 SKUs. Wow. 15 unique. Like a board game, coloring books, Chinese character book, the decks, and smaller decks. Yeah. 15 different products. It took 2 years just a constant grind now. Like, every single day until I create the first one, then the next one, then the next one.
Isaac [00:38:20]:
So there was no break in between. It's just go, go, go. Because, like, in order to sustain the company, like, as we sold the preorders of the first product, we had to start taking in the second like, the preorders for the second product. And so there from there, like, I'm just, like, trying to catch up, like, trying to, you know, fulfill the orders. Wow. Which was good because it was like, you know, someone, like, constantly, like, smacking me Mhmm. From behind. I was like, bro
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:38:50]:
Yeah. Bro, you can't stop.
Isaac [00:38:51]:
You gotta yo. Yeah. Which is why I think we that, like, these products just come out, like, really fast. We're working on biomed because there was a lot of people asking for biomed. Biomed has a lot of cards. There's anatomy, physiology, pharmacology, pathology that we're focusing on. And we've, filled out the excel sheet of all the information that we're gonna put in. Now it's in the building phase where we're designing and creating the actual cards.
Isaac [00:39:23]:
So a lot of drawings, everything. Total comes out to be, like, front and back. So if you count the front and the back, then there's about 28100 oh, this fire is 14. Yeah. 28100 unique faces that we have to create right now. Wow.
Bora [00:39:44]:
You've been a bit bored.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:39:46]:
It's a lot. Well, Lantau Brands is truly a labor of love coming from the 2 of you, Trent. And like, I know that acupuncture students out there are definitely benefiting from it. And then now with your biomed pre order series that's coming out. So what is the timeline on that one? When is the pre orders are happening now already, Right?
Isaac [00:40:05]:
Or Not yet. Like, the biomed preorders aren't happening yet, but we'll soon be opening it. Okay. We're gonna divide the biomed into 2, decks because there's just way too many information. So the first deck that we're gonna send out is gonna be pathology and pharmacology. So pharmacology and pathology, like, in the Western medicine sense, right? A lot of people, like, we talk to and, you know, her parents are acupuncturists as well. They've been working for 35 years. They have their clinic in Busan, Korea.
Isaac [00:40:39]:
And a lot of their patients bring in 10 medications, like tons of medications. And they need to know every single one, right? So right now we're creating pharmacology cards so that it's easy to remember and just have with you, plus the pathology cards. So basic aneurysms, basic terms
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:41:01]:
Yeah.
Isaac [00:41:02]:
And then being able to match those cards together, like drug class. Right? So a drug class has this medication so you can match it together. So we're excited to show that soon, but we're slowly teasing. We're going to officially open the preorders probably, like, late August or September. That's late August or September. Okay. So be on the lookout for pre ordering biomed card series in August, September. That's awesome.
Isaac [00:41:30]:
And yeah, let
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:41:31]:
me know. Cause I'll definitely share all of that with my community as well. Cause that's, it's huge. When I do tutoring sessions, biomed is like the hardest part for acupuncturists, you know, and, and yeah, it is hard. Like, when, when people take the foundations, acupuncture point location, biomed, it's like, what, what order do you go in? Oh, people take like acupuncture first foundations and then biomed at the end because they think it's going to be the hardest, you know? Yeah. For me, it was a flip. Right? My my background is physical therapy. So I did biomed first.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:41:59]:
Like I graduated and then like the next one of the 2 biomed, got that out of the way quick. And then I focused more on foundations and acupuncture point location, you know, but like, I just, I mean, I did it. I did it fast because it was like I got married in November, graduated in December, and then took January, March, April like that. It was like very fast. But biomed was I mean, biomed was it these are anti inflammatory medications. Where is it? Oh, NSAIDs, Ibuprofen, you know, whatever. Aleve. Yes.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:42:39]:
Yeah. That's that's great. That's great. Yeah. Because then. Yeah. Because that's I mean, that actually would segue us good into a question for you guys, which is people who are listening right now. They're in different stages of their acupuncture student's career.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:42:53]:
So some are new acupuncture students, 1st year. Some are thinking about it. Right? Some are thinking about just going to acupuncture school. So if I was a 1st year acupuncture student and I wanted to make sure I set myself up for success, I go to your website. What's the first deck that I should buy so that I have this good foundational knowledge?
Isaac [00:43:14]:
You wanna say 1, 2, 3? The same thing.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:43:16]:
Yeah. 1, 2, 3. You guys are too cute. 1, 2, 3.
Isaac [00:43:21]:
Foundational. Oh, oh, great. Yeah. Good thing that would work. Yes. Okay. What's your last name? So why foundations work? Yeah. I think yeah.
Isaac [00:43:32]:
Found like, Right? Foundations. It has to be foundations because the concept of TCM relies a lot on the foundation portion because it's good to know this point is good for this. Good. This point is good for that or this herb is good for this or that. But if you don't know why it's good for it and what like, we're talking about chi. We're talking about blood. We're talking about hui, hui, like, all these different terms. Right? If we don't know what these terms are, I feel like you're trying to shoot in the dark.
Isaac [00:44:07]:
You're shooting your gun, but you don't know where you're aiming at. So definitely, if I had foundations, I think I would have had such an easier time. Mhmm. Because that's part of the reason why, like, when I went to school, I started taking English classes, but I transitioned to Korean classes Mhmm. Because when I took a Korean class, they were going really deep into the terminologies and the actual Chinese characters because there was so much information within the Chinese character Oh. That was being revealed and not being revealed in the English class. So had I known these Chinese characters, had I known why it's called shui or chi or yuan, why is it called yuan chi? Why is it called Gucci? It's not a name brand Gucci. Right? But it's like Gu Chi.
Isaac [00:44:59]:
It's a very specific term that's called Gucci. It's the foundation. It's definitely for me. Mhmm.
Bora [00:45:06]:
Yeah. For me, I agree with him. And also for me, if you really understand the foundation of TCM, for example, heat and cold Mhmm. Or blood and chi, when you are actually diagnosing to patients, you'll automatically know what kind of herbs or formulas or acupuncture points that you need to use. Mhmm. If you don't have good foundations, then even though you know a lot about the herbs or formulas or acupuncture points, you're gonna misdiagnose. Mhmm. And then in worst case, the patient's treatment will get worse.
Bora [00:45:42]:
Yeah. Pretty much. Yeah. Yeah. For example, treating heat patient with heat herbs, then it's gonna create more heat in the body and then Mhmm. Yeah. Which is not good.
Isaac [00:45:52]:
Because, like, cold and hot herbs both could tonify blood. Right? There's certain ones that tonify blood. But just because it's, tonifying blood
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:46:01]:
and you don't consider the temperature, then it it could become, like, worse situation. So that foundational knowledge, definitely, if you're a 1st year acupuncture student, even if you're a 2nd year acupuncture student and it's not too late to get the foundational knowledge first by ordering the foundations deck. So foundations deck. Okay. Because it is true though, because, you know, when you first go to acupuncture school and, like, the teachers up there and they're like, 8 principals, heat, cool. It's your interior. And it's like, what? Oh, is it exterior interior? Is it access or deficiency? And it's like, what? What are you talk what are you talking about? I have no like, you're learning a different language, literally.
Isaac [00:46:40]:
Yeah. And the funny thing is that what confuses me because I'm, like, really OCD. Like, I I need to know facts. And when I learned that excess and full is the same Chinese character, like, that blew my mind. I was like, I was lied to. Like, deficiency and empty. Like, empty cold. Right? It's actually deficiency cold.
Isaac [00:47:05]:
It's just literally the same Chinese character, like Shu. And I was like, oh my god. I I why are you using 2 different terms for the same Chinese character? But, obviously, as I learned more, like, Chinese characters are much more sophisticated. Like in different contexts they have different meanings which is why it was translated empty cold rather than deficiency colds. But had I known that empty and deficiency are derived from the same character, it would have given me a totally different perspective, you know, which is why my baby product is foundations because it has a lot of Chinese characters and it shows the definition. So to me, it's crucial. It's it's totally crucial. Yeah.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:47:51]:
Okay. I see. Yeah. Perfect. So then please, everyone, go to their website, crafts.com, buy the foundations one, you know, and then obviously, you could see there's a lot of thought that goes into it, especially so that you appreciate the different concepts in TCM. Because, like, yes, like in in American schools, we're just taught the English word. And a lot of times, you get the question too where it's like, oh, do I need to know the Chinese word? Like, maybe for the board exam, you don't necessarily. But if you wanna appreciate it more and, like, really understand the beauty of how this medicine connects altogether, like, that Chinese character really does help.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:48:27]:
And, clearly, Isaac and Laura have put all that into this foundation stack. So definitely go out and buy that foundation stack. Now let's say they went through 1st year, 2nd year. Right? They bought your foundations, then they bought your acupuncture 1 or biology 1. Right? The biomed one when it comes out. Now they're studying for the board exam. You know? What's your recommendation basically for how to use your study card?
Bora [00:48:53]:
For me, I took California board exam and then also the NCCOM, all four sections. So I would say, if you're taking, California board exam, I'll buy whatever you're you feel that you're deficient at, and then just focus on that.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:49:11]:
Mhmm.
Bora [00:49:11]:
And if you're taking NCCOM exam, you could choose which subject you wanna test. If you're taking biomed, get biomed, and then study focus on that. If you're taking Chinese herbology, then, buy the herbology doc. For oriental medicine, foundation of oriental medicine exam, I would go ahead and buy the foundations and the diagnosis that Mhmm. That's my recommendation.
Isaac [00:49:37]:
Yeah. Focused on based on the exam. Right?
Bora [00:49:41]:
Exams. Yes.
Isaac [00:49:42]:
I'm I'm the type of guy that studies not for the exam, but I need to know why. Why this is this and why this is that. So for me, I I think the best way to study for people who are like me and, like, very nitpicky and that kind of stuff is to focus on let's say you have a formula, then focus on that formula and get all the cards that are related to that one formula. For instance, like blood deficiency, blood and deficiency card, and, put that in the pile with the formula, plus the herbs that are inside the formula. So I would hyper focus on that one formula and try to understand, like, the holistic picture of why this formula is good for blood deficiency. And look at all the herbs that are next to it. And it because these are cards, like, I could literally just put them, you know, next to each other and then see blood and flip it around and see what the definition is or, like, deficiency, remind myself what the definition is, and then look at the herbs and then see what kind of functions they have. And I was like, oh, yeah.
Isaac [00:50:55]:
This this one and this one. Like, this together, this is helping with the blood deficiency. This is helping with moving the blood, and this is why it's good for this through this formula, and that kind of way. And if you had the diagnosis deck with you, then you would be able to see the diagnosis and see the pattern. Why is this pattern causing this kind of symptoms? And look at the pattern and the symptoms and the herbs, like, all in one spot and just hyperfocus on that one formula. Wow. So customizing your own education and dive really deep. So for people who are like me, I would recommend that kind of study.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:51:36]:
Yeah. It's great for tactile learners, people who need to see it where it is, right? Like for me, I remember on quizzes, I'm like, oh, I remember this on the back page and it's like right at the bottom left, but I don't know, remember what it was, but I know it's just, oh, I forgot when it was the second one. But, yeah. So having actually multiple decks is actually really good because you can just combine all the information together. It's literally principle based learning where it's like, you know, you break it down into all of its different components and then use backtrack up to like, okay. This is deficiency, and then you go from there. Wow. That's actually a really good hack, actually, for for your cards.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:52:12]:
Yeah. I was envisioning also the Tony Stark Iron Man situation where it's like they pull up the hologram and you have all your different cards and then like how it segues together. Yeah. Because it's like it's learning. Right? It's just a different, you know, way of learning. That's awesome. Yeah. Because like learning the reason why things work versus just memorizing it, rote memorization, like, that can only go so far because then if you just memorize it, you're gonna remember where it is on your piece of paper, or you're gonna remember, I studied this Right.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:52:41]:
Over here, but what is that? I forget. But you can know why why it does this, why the Chinese character is this, then you then you remember it. Right? So much better.
Isaac [00:52:51]:
Yeah. Mhmm.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:52:52]:
Exactly. Yeah. I think also with your cards too, there's some different memory or learning techniques. Like, one thing that I remember is memory palettes. Have you heard of memory palettes? I used to do this for just, like, 67, 3, 4, 8, like, the different sheet cleft points and just learning it across. Memory palettes is, like, where they basically, you study a topic and whatever. Let's say, like, diagnosis or something. You're studying 6 stages and, you know, Yang Ming channel pattern, and you have a you have a card for that.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:53:25]:
And so you would study this card in a very specific part of your house or your apartment. Okay. So you study this one in your office. You put it on your shelf. In your memory palace, which is your brain, you walk up to the shelf, you pick up the card, and you read it there. You know? And so, okay. There's 4 bigs, big thirst, big fever, big pulse, big sweat. Okay.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:53:45]:
Put it back there. And then, like, then you remember, you know, like, when you need to pull it again. Oh, yeah. This is the one that's on my shelf. Okay. And you go there in your memory palace, you know, or it's like Like a memory anchor. Yeah. Yes.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:53:55]:
Just like an anchor. Yes. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Like a anchor. So it's anchored there or it's anchored at the toilet and or it's anchored at the stairs, something like that. So then you can walk around and and remember where you place these specific things.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:54:08]:
So that that's a really that's for people who have your cards, really good to do that physically in your house too. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Physically You could
Isaac [00:54:16]:
take it to the bathroom. Yeah.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:54:18]:
If you remember, in the bathroom, I went over these cards, and so, like, what cards did I go over? I went over these cards and, boom, where I was in my car, and I went over these cards. Or I was on the NURW train, and I was near 34th Street, and I went over this card. You know? It's like, wow. Cool. That that helps you. Anything to help you pass. Yeah. But it's just having the cards having the cards is great.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:54:38]:
Right? But you have to execute really good on the cards too because you guys put so much love, blood, sweat, tears, and sacrifice, working crazy jobs, working a 9 to 5, then working 5 to 9, 5 PM to 9 AM, working on those cards. Right? And now people, like, once they buy them, that's just the first step. 2nd step is use them correctly. Use them correctly. Mhmm. And, like, just, I guess, I would say then probably exposing yourself, like you said, to them, to the cards in a categorical way helps a lot too. And then, obviously, also, if you're gonna take the foundations, buy the foundation stack and combine it with diagnosis, like you were saying before, Bora. Something people use too is like this, like, my wife is a speech therapist, so she talks about this a lot where it's called a delayed recall or spaced repetitions.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:55:26]:
So, like, using your cards. Right? So let's say it is, like, the lung, you know, and they're just learning foundational stuff, so they're learning lung functions. So, okay, it houses the. It opens into the nose, whatever. That's on the card, and they would take it out, read it, be able to recall it, and then they put it, you know, in, like, box 1, let's say. So they put it in box 1. And then 4 hours later, they go back to the box and they try to recall, you know, everything that's in that box. If they can recall it in that box, then they put it in box number 2.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:56:00]:
Box number 2 is gonna be one that you review in 2 days. So then you test yourself. In 2 days, I'm gonna go to this box. Anything I don't remember, I put it back in box 1. So that way, box 1, I review every 4 hours again. And then, oh, I got it. Right. Now I put it in box 3.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:56:14]:
Box 3 is every week. So every week, I go to these cards because, like, okay. I I I got it. This is easy. Lung functions, you know, body hair, poe, opens into nose, whatever. Right? That's in box 3 now because that's every week, and I get it. Now I put in box 4 box 4 is every month, so I review those every month. But everything that I really need, like, I have a hard time with it, put in box 1.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:56:35]:
I do that maybe twice a day, every 4 hours, every 8 hours, or something like that. That's like the box method for, but because you guys made these cards, people can use those different learning methods. You know, that's something that we were doing in physical therapy school.
Isaac [00:56:50]:
Oh, that's a really great way to utilize it. Yeah.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:56:55]:
Yeah. Woah. Okay. Yeah. So people have the access to your cards. People have, people who are listening have, you know, 2 different methods now, I guess, that they can use your cards with with a whole memory Palestine or the memory anchoring, and then the, the space repetition method as well. So I hope everyone uses that. Tush.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:57:13]:
Alright. So, Aura and Isaac, this was I think this was an amazing conversation. I think people got a lot out of it. I hope people were motivated by today, by your story about sticking to your ethics, sticking to your morals, you know, and and and executing on certain ideas and dreams that they have. But they can't find a partner to help them focus or perhaps focus themselves. Right? And figure out what's what's their life goal, course correcting themselves, orienting themselves toward that, right, and even in the intention of orienting themselves before they treat their patients.
Isaac [00:57:48]:
I really was appreciate this kind of thing, having something that students right now who've gone through what we've gone through and seeing people who are I think we've been really lucky, and I would consider ourselves successful because we've gotten to this point. I would have never imagined all the things that happened in our lives up to this point, and I'm really thankful for that. And to have this kind of space to show other students who might be going through the same struggles that we've gone through. Because at that time, there's not a lot of information out there, not a lot of acupuncturists who could say, hey, we followed our heart, we followed our dreams, and we're doing exactly what we want to do. So for us to have the opportunity to show people, like, hey, this is real. Yeah. This is actually true. This is reality.
Isaac [00:58:46]:
You could do it. Believe in yourself. Just one more day, one more day, keep grinding. Just do what you wanna do. Follow your heart. You don't have to sacrifice your morals. You don't have to sacrifice your beliefs. Just follow your dreams, and you'll get there.
Isaac [00:59:01]:
And the fact that we have the privilege to say that to your podcast, I really appreciate it. So thank you so much for giving
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:59:08]:
us this opportunity. Thank you. Thank you both. Thank you both because I
Isaac [00:59:08]:
think everyone, you heard opportunity. Thank you.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:59:10]:
Thank you both. Thank you both. Because like everyone, you heard it from Bora and Isaac themselves. It's possible. Whatever you have in your head, whatever you're thinking, it's possible. They did it. They did it through a lot of trial, tribulation. They did it through blood, sweat, and tears.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:59:26]:
But over time, it will happen on a long enough time horizon. You can be successful at whatever you're thinking about. If you can think it, you can make it happen. So Thank you.
Bora [00:59:35]:
Thank you.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:59:35]:
Let's let everyone know where they can find you. Your social media, your website, what where can they find you guys?
Bora [00:59:41]:
You can find us on Instagram. Our handle is poncho friends, and then you can find our product on our website, Poncho friends.com. We also have TikTok. We also have other social media account. You can just type Poncho Friends, and you will find us.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [00:59:57]:
Mhmm.
Isaac [00:59:58]:
And if you don't want the physical cards but want the digital access to the cards, We actually have an on a website called ponchoschool.mn.c0. We could provide you the link, but you could actually subscribe there. And you could look at our cards through an app on iOS or Android or on a website
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [01:00:22]:
to It's a really cool app. So it's called Mighty Network. Perfect. We will link all of that in the show notes, everything in the description. I'll make sure that's all linked there. And aren't you guys also giving a special code for study acupuncture listeners as well?
Bora [01:00:36]:
Yeah. We actually have a, special coupon for study acupuncture with me. It's study acu with me, and it's 10% of your first order.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [01:00:46]:
Nice. Awesome. So you heard it from Laura and Isaac. You will see all of their social media links and the link to their website where all their products are. And you guys can go to their website. And on your first order, you get 10% off using the code studyacuwithme. That's s t u d y a c u w I t h m e, and you get 10% off. So everyone, please buy their study cards.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [01:01:13]:
Use those different methods that we talked about. It's gonna help you retain the materials. It's gonna help you understand and appreciate the medicine that is traditional Chinese medicine and help you pass the board exam. So, again, Bor and Isaac, thank you guys so much. Thank you for this time. We appreciate you. You guys are amazing. Congratulations on getting married soon or you guys officially married, but congratulations on getting married in Korea soon.
Dr. Richard Lai DPT LAc [01:01:32]:
So I wish you all the luck with that, and we'll see you again. We'll see you soon. Thank you. Bye. You.
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